Transcript: The 4 Practices of Change-Fit Leadership Teams: Part 1 (EP8)
Brendan Rogers: Hello, everybody. I'm Brendan Rogers, the host of The Culture of Things podcast and this is Episode 8. Today, I'm speaking with Bernie Kelly. Bernie is an experienced executive who has led turnaround and transformation periods in logistics, consumer products, and food and beverages. He's a strategist and mentor to leaders in health and age services, med tech, professional services, and supply chain. Bernie has worked for brands such as Kimberly-Clark, Golden Circle, Diageo, Johnson & Johnson, and both the private and public health systems. He's worked with approximately 100 leadership teams across Australia, New Zealand and Asia, and he's known for setting up people, particularly leaders and leadership teams for success.
The focus of our conversation today is understanding the 4 Practices of Change-Fit Leadership Teams, which is also the title of his new book, which is due for release in June this year.
Bernie, welcome to The Culture of Things podcast.
Bernie Kelly: Thanks a lot, Brendan. Really looking forward to chatting today.
Brendan Rogers: Bernie, I've been through the formalities of what you've done and who you've been involved in. How about you tell us in your own words a little bit about your journey and where that's brought you to today?
Bernie Kelly: My journey to date has really been a learning and a sharing journey. When I look back over the years and how much I've been really fortunate to learn and then also a real passion for sharing that learning and setting others up for success, so it's sort of a recurring pattern around that, but I have to sort of say, I find this leadership work to be a combination of humbling and inspiring, really just getting to know other people and what you can do. But also, you know, in the realities of implementation, how many things are actually quite complex and learning as you go. And so always keeping that learner, that learner humble mind has been a part of my journey.
Brendan Rogers: Mate, and I have to say, the experiences we’ve had, and, we haven't known each other a long time, maybe about six months or so. But I see that in every interaction, you know, your ability to be vulnerable and wanting to learn. And even I think, occasionally, you send me a note about some stuff and say, you know, “Hey, my learning is, or my reflection is this”. So, you're really living and breathing that, mate. So, well done on that.
Bernie Kelly: No. I do try and live and breathe it. And I think one of the fascinating things is working with really, really good leadership teams and some of the better leaders that are out there. I think there's a real common understanding about the fact that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. And that, so that actually has been one of the common attributes I've seen of working with some of the best leaders that I've got, that I've had the privilege of working with. So, I do try and lean into that as much as I possibly can myself.
Brendan Rogers: Let's go into our topic - The 4 Practices of Change-Fit Leadership Teams. As I said in the introduction, that's the title of your new book. How about you tell us a little bit about the background to this thinking and where this ‘change-fit leadership’ concept came from.
Bernie Kelly: So, I've been working in strategy execution really for probably about 25 to 30 years. And in the last decade that we just finished then, it was really, you could sort of say that the speed of the development was coming, you know, accelerating them and there's all their future sort of stuff around about how the knowledge is sort of turning over and going out of date at a quicker pace. And you can see the good old days of, you know, five-year strategic plans are just, you know, well and truly totally out the window. But also then, you know, the technology and the social changes, that sort of acceleration of the cycles was something I've been reflecting on a lot over the last few years and researching what's going on here because I can sort of see that it really was some of the assumptions that people used to happily make.
Probably I'm going to call it the 20th Century strategy execution assumptions, were just starting to seem not as relevant, but in the mix of that, that there was these deeper fundamentals. So, I've been reflecting and researching around that for a period of time and that's where it sort of became obvious to me that when I started to reflect on all the different teams I've worked at, that there was some real clear differences in how the teams could actually keep up with the sort of dynamic around the speed of change. And it was from that that I started to, yeah, I've been using for a number of years that parallel with the fitness and then sort of digging into that around, that there was practices that sort of teams that were able to adapt and anticipate and thrive more had these same sort of practices going on in their work.
Brendan Rogers: How about you give us an overview of the model again? I've actually ordered the book. I'm not sure if you're aware of that.
Bernie Kelly: No. I have seen that. So, thank you very much for it. It's in the preorder file and I'll actually be able to be distributing those in June. So, I appreciate that.
Brendan Rogers: Thank you, mate. And look, I'm going to put this out there now just so you're aware. So, like another mate of mine who's written a book and released it recently, I do expect a signed copy even though I’m paying normal recommended retail price. I expect a signed copy.
Bernie Kelly: (Laughing) Yeah. I’ll promise you today, Brendan, you'll be getting a signed copy. No problem at all. I'll definitely do it.
Brendan Rogers: Champion, mate. I’ll look forward to it. So, getting back to the 4 Practices of Change-Fit Leadership Teams, how about, which is in your book, how about you give a bit of an overview of that model and then we'll break that down into its components?
Bernie Kelly: Yeah. So stepping before the four practices was actually the observation that different teams had different levels of change-fitness. So, actually, I found that I actually was, there was lots of proven methods, proven principles, or there was some good strategies and some teams just never actually followed through and made them happen. And other teams are actually really, really on that. So, in the same way as, and that it was never really one factor; there was always multiple factors. So, in the same way as with fitness, and if you think about someone who's assessing your fitness, there's strength, there's flexibility, there's endurance, you know, multiple factors going on. The cardio, similar with strategy execution, your implementation powers, that there was factors around, you know, the trust you had within your team and your dynamic, the strategic frame and the resilience of your strategic frame that you looked at. Like, you know, really where you’re monitoring the right emerging factors, having the capability to respond, learn and anticipate, but then also the inner leadership work that the team, the leaders are doing on themselves and then their own dynamic as a leadership team.
Those factors did have them at quite different levels of changed-fitness. So, before I got it, yeah. Before getting into the clear, really clear on the full practices was that observation that there are teams that are actually shaping industries as we speak. There’s other teams that are really leaning into some of the more progressive stuff and they're really leveraging. And then you can see that even coming out of a period like this COVID-19, there's people that are gonna make some amazing stuff happen this decade and that leveraging sort of level. There's lots of organisations that have got leadership teams embracing the future and seeing the trends and actually really learning into those.
But then, I also see below that, sort of, you know, good companies that have actually been quite good. They've got all the track record. I respect a lot of their leaders, but from a change-fitness point of view, they're coasting. And a lot of those people at the moment chatting with them through this COVID-19 period, they go, well, “We're anticipating a deep ‘V’ recession. We'll be back to normal and we'll just sort of keep pushing it”. And they're not leaning into their change-fitness. I've also unfortunately worked with a number of teams where they're really just, you know, they're complying with all of this sort of stuff and you can even hear that in their language. They're either sort of complying with what a regulator is asking them to do, complying with what their board's asking them to do, and they're not really learners and change-fit.
Then on the turnaround end of this sort of stuff, there's organisations you can just see, that everyone can see, that there's the issue around them that they're actually avoiding facing that. And then below that, the collapsing level of the ladder where, you know, really it's time they took their calling in the liquidators, they've actually lost all their change-fitness.
Brendan Rogers: Was there any one particular event or engagement with a client where this whole reflection really rammed home for you and then you thought, “Hey, there's something in this”?
Bernie Kelly: Going right back by the good fortune in the 90’s, I was working with a company called Online Distribution Services. When we were still doing dial-up, there was no actual real online. And we had those sort of advanced analytical skills providing into the retailers before they were doing it.
We were shaping the industry, well ahead of the curve and at the time, I didn't know that. And then, I actually got the good fortune of doing at a young age some really senior roles in National Supply Chain and running factories for Kimberly-Clark. And we had a world class, they were from a world point of view, they were divesting of organisations that weren't up to a high level of resilience, you know, that they actually, we had to have certain market indicators, satisfaction with customers as well as rigorous quality and good margins. So, they really sort of running the ruler over us. And we had to sort of step up into that. And at the time, again looking back, I can see that our interactions with all the suppliers that we dealt with, we had to actually lift the Australian supplier network to be able to run at those levels.
So we were sort of at that shaping level, and I didn't really realise it at the time, but then probably 10/15 years ago, I moved into, I was the CEO of a consulting business where we were doing a lot of this sort of end-to-end value stream work in consumer goods and healthcare. And started to, sort of say, that's when I really started to see that not everyone was working like that. That there was lots of teams that a lot of my, the good thing with doing that consulting work and doing lots of diagnostics really made me sort of see a lot of assumptions, you know, challenged a lot of assumptions. There was things I assumed a leadership team would behave like this, I assumed certain levels of clarity and respect and collaboration at leadership tables.
And I found that it wasn't in every team. And then actually because of my obsession, I guess we've tried to help people set up for success. Sort of really digging in around those is probably the last 10/15 years has been my, I'm probably unraveling my own assumptions, like an onion, multiple cases. I guess there was one in particular where there was a period, particularly probably about two or three years in, where I had two organisations approach us around the same time and we were doing very, very similar work and about six months later could really sort of see one team, they had moved their threshold for what they even knew was possible, their expectation of potential, it totally changed within six months of some of the work we've done with them and the team that we'd started around the same time, were still having debates cross-functionally around their executive table. The classic sort of finance and operations debate was still happening. They were still questioning whether they had enough data to go there, there was still sort of finger-pointing. That was a real compare-and-contrast moment for me as well, where this stuff, I said, I need to understand this a lot better.
Brendan Rogers: Sounds like the famous silos playing out at the boardroom table, mate.
Bernie Kelly: So, one of the factors is definitely that dynamic, that cross-functional dynamic, which actually, if you, you know, you don't need to run across an organisation with thousands of people, you can go into that leadership table and find that dynamic in the half dozen people. And I say that with many CEOs. I mean, really, don't talk about transformation if you haven't actually got, stepped in and had the hard conversations with those five people around you so that a lot of that cross-functional stuff plays out at the Exec table. But then, also that then the other factors that I was talking about sort of complete the picture.
Brendan Rogers: That's a great point you make. It's a pretty common place to go and just, you've only got to sit in a team meeting, whether that's a senior leadership team or you know, a fairly high level management group in an organisation. And it's very clear to see how functional or indeed dysfunctional they are just through the interaction in the meetings.
Mate, let's move forward. What I wanted to ask you, you mentioned Kimberly-Clark. I know you worked for Kimberly-Clark for quite a long time and you, your experiences there were very, very, you know, a great experience as a developing leader. Probably, hence, also why they get a pretty good mention in Jim Collins’ book, Good to Great. You mentioned Kimberly-Clark was at that shaping level. So, as far as the ladder and the parallels you make with health are at the top of the tree and the bottom of the tree is collapsing. If I'm understanding the levels correctly. What sort of timeframe in your head or maybe you've actually had the opportunity to experience this with organisations where they've moved from collapsing and getting much closer through the ladder, up to shaping.
Bernie Kelly: So this is an interesting conversation because I don't think it's time frame. Which is fascinating as a lot of people like to talk time frame. And this is where it comes back to mindset and learning capability. They're probably the drivers more than time. So, if we were doing a little triangle, you'd actually have time on there. But I think mindset, and the learning capability are the other two points of the triangle. Quite often when you've got to the collapsing stage, you need a lot of empathy working with people that have got to that stage, it's pretty bad. And I do think that the empathy and the concern for people when they're in that space is you have to give a lot. From an economics point of view, I think that a lot of people once they've got to that phase, that quite often, the financial turnaround is more likely, which means actually flushing out a lot of those leaders. But I think that actually showing the leadership team that you're working with a lot of empathy, giving them respect so that they can actually be individuals that can thrive in another day is actually quite probably the more common scenario for those at the collapsing stage. But then sort of avoiding and complying a little bit further up the ladder is where the turnaround can become a base for transformation.
Brendan Rogers: With that, and you talk about transformation, have you had experiences, and if so, tell us a little bit about what that looks like, where you may have started working with an organisation and they're at a certain level of the ladder, but you've seen this journey unfold and move closer. Maybe they've not yet got to shaping, but they've moved much closer to that. Give us a sense of what that looks like.
Bernie Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. So, I think when you're working with a team on a pure turnaround, that actually is more of a transactional relationship and you're really just working on the one singular plane where you're bringing expertise in, and that could be very structuring expertise, financial expertise, some of those things that are learned from outside and you execute on those very specific things, very transactional. When it becomes more transformational, you're playing on multiple planes. So, you actually are solving the complex problems, which are a combination of all those things. But you're also, yeah, you're going into the hearts and mind space and you actually lift people to see a greater potential. So no, so that that actually is the more leadership and more rewarding for both the people you're working with and the rewarding for yourself is actually on those transformational jobs. And where I think that becomes key is actually getting some work to happen.
This is why I sort of obsessed on the traction point because quite often, we don't believe and you can sort of say it even if you're bringing up kids or you're coaching kids in sport or in these sort of transformational business opportunities, that quite often, I don't believe I could go to that next level. And getting in beside, and this is what I love to do, getting in beside people and getting them to do some exercises where they're actually getting more and more confidence and belief in a different potential is the, that is the platform for the transformation.
Getting in health services and actually getting them to move from being reactive to believing in predictive analytics. 10/15 years ago, we were at the forefront of that sort of stuff and that actually was a real switch, you know. Once, they actually believed, we were able to sort of step forward through that massive pace.
I was involved in Golden Circle, which was a real turnaround phase, probably early 2000’s where the, for a whole heap of reasons, it was probably the first business I've been in where we were actually disrupted from external factors. The board had around, going on around them at the time. Being a cooperative, the investors were all of that age where they were rather than wanting to be growers anymore, they are at that age of wanting to retire and cash out. All the growing base was actually on the Sunshine Coast. And we all know that that actually is an amazing area to live. And, but the back paddock of a lot of the growers was a greater way of making money for their children than slaving it out being a supplier to a food processor. The factory hadn't been invested in, the overseas factories were invested in and the retailers became, or starting to become very good at analytics and sort of be able to sort of push back and squeeze margins a lot harder.
And the transformation for us there was actually sort of seeing the end-to-end value chain and getting the growers and the factory to be able to work together with. We've had a very sort of siloed view of the world where the factory were basically working away. And buying pineapples, as an example, buying pineapples at a tonnage rate, which actually incentivised the growers to make massively large pineapples, you know, that's a better yield for them. And they actually sort of, we were actually getting things that were too big to put in a can, which actually made the factory have more waste. Being able to get that end-to-end picture really clear transformed that as a sort of a team across those previously held silos. That opened up a new level of potential and improved quality and improved cost-effectiveness.
Brendan Rogers: Mate, my mind's gone off topic a little bit because I grew up in Brisbane as you know, and these sort of times you were talking about when you're going through and you are heavily involved as a senior leader in that transformation, myself and my family, we'd go to the Golden Circle Factory, we'd go and buy some cheap stuff, get our orange juices and our fruit and all that sort of stuff. And it just brought back such great memories. It's just fascinating to me. You and I are sitting on this podcast having a bit of a chat about that. You mentioned it and it brings back my memories. (Laughing) We've known each other for longer than what we actually realised. (Laughing)
Bernie Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. And it was an amazing business and I think in so many ways, it was hard facing the realities there for a lot of people. So many reasons to be proud that, you know, the history sort of, you know, post-World War II through to that, that period, so nearly about 50 years of history they’d had and so many reasons to be proud. But then, yeah, just those external factors hitting them all at once and that actually gives me a lot of empathy for businesses with the impending challenges that are going to come post-COVID-19. I think as well, like just because you've had your good decades of great things doesn't mean you're not going to have some of those external drivers hitting hard.
Brendan Rogers: When you go into a business, what are you looking for around the business to identify or give you some sort of picture on where this organisation’s at as far as that ladder you talk about, you know, the collapsing up to shaping side?
Bernie Kelly: Sometimes, it's great to have the external eyes. I think that is excellent. However, I've also witnessed where it's been done in a way that actually disempowers the leadership team where they actually have, you go into an organisation that's got multiple external consulting reports on the bookshelf of the CEO or Managing Director or the Board Chair, you know, and it's just really just disempowering, because no one ever owned those diagnostics and therefore, they're just paper. They're not actually something real. So, I do have diagnostics that I utilise. I mean coming from trust in the network and that and actually sort of stakeholder trust is actually an important sort of part of the diagnostic or the vital signs of change-fitness. And then sort of getting more into the strategic frame and understanding whether it actually has resilience built in, whether there is actually enough, whether they're close to the detail of their business, both internally and externally.
So internally, I mean like, you know, do they actually understand the leadership stuff and the leadership gaps, but also the management processes and technology, are they sort of bring to the surface the issues and gaps they have through their values systems, the value chains, and then, have they actually got track record of responding to that stuff? So, it's quite fascinating working with organisations from the resilience frame where they actually, they may monitor stuff, but it's not with any sort of depth or looking to the future enough. It might be sort of too short a timeframe. They might respond to stuff, but really, they're just reacting. They're not actually building in capabilities for that next imperative or horizon and then whether they've actually got learning and anticipating built into their management systems.
Then actually, it's interesting, another part of the diagnostic is the actual leadership team in the development work. And I know this is something you and I have chatted about a lot. Are the leaders overtly living by self-accountability or do you hear blame language in their conversation so that self-accountability is a massive piece. And then also, are they actually living and growing their own self-awareness? And then, the fourth one for me, is the leadership team dynamic. The stuff that, you know, we talk about, Patrick Lencioni or someone else like that. And then there is quite symptom level stuff that shows up in their strategy execution planning that we can make quite clear that these plans aren't even built to be successful, let alone implementable.
Brendan Rogers: So Bernie, let's talk about the 4 Practices of Change-Fit Leadership Teams. You know, we built this up a bit. We've talked about the parallel you make with health that you've just gone through the five vital signs of organisational fitness, which again, probably another day for another podcast. Let's go into the 4 Practices of Change-Fit Leadership Teams. What are those four practices? Give a bit of an overview.
Bernie Kelly: So, the four practices I definitely summarise is: expose, explore, expand and exert. And it was interesting, in sort of the building the clarity of that I, just through trial and error, and actually sort of different methods that worked time after time with teams, started to sort of see like a tension around like the exposed piece requiring the self-accountability but also the self-awareness to be able to expose. And so, back to the change-fit ladder, some teams are actually able to expose the gaps versus where they want to be. Whereas some teams actually really either need an outsider to do that or are unable to do that. So, actually building up the capabilities of sort of seeing the gaps and I used sort of in that space think from a feed forward point of view rather than a feed back. Like you know, looking forward, if we want to be operating at this level, what are the capability gaps to operate at that level? Then you go, “Well okay, someone is running a world class podcast, has these technology things in place, they have these behaviours in place, they have these rhythms in place and actually, you know, having that expose, then there are lots of little exercises inside that to actually getting good and actually getting better and better at exposing those gaps for your future development is the first one.
Brendan Rogers: Can you give us an example of what, maybe an exercise, might be to help expose, ‘cause again, that's really fascinating to me to be honest. I know you talk about self-accountability, self-awareness, those sort of words have come up a lot in even just the first eight episodes I've done of the podcasts and around leadership. So, how do you help, given your experience, your knowledge, your reflection on these subjects, how do you help expose people?
Bernie Kelly: One exercise, which, this one has actually been one simple tool out of the NLP practice, the Neuro Linguistic Programming. There's one very simple thing about above the line, below the line and above the line being at cause. So, I actually take ownership of the situation and I make things happen. And then a solid line to the other state being that at effect, where I’ve let the power be with others. I can make, I blame and I allow myself excuses.
That simple model there has actually been quite transformative in a number of jobs I've done where we actually just get that really clear and have that conversation with the leadership team that every time we're looking at these new challenges, which side of the line am I playing on? At cause or at effect? And actually just getting yourself to be aware of it and it's a humbling practice to be honest.
Even with myself, I can feel times when there is things that aren't going as well as I would like to go. And when I expose myself through that little exercise, I can see that maybe in this case, I've let the power be with others. I'm sort of saying, well, you know, I'm waiting on them, waiting on someone else to get me something, I find an excuse to actually not have the problem-solving energy on it.
That little tool by itself, just that at cause, at effect, massive impact. And I have that in the book as a real clear choice you can make if you own that sort of the conversation about one of the great things about being human is we have the power of choice. If you actually keep putting that frame at effect and that cause in front of yourself, that really dials up your capability of being self-accountable. And from there, that actually is a real traction point for building and getting changed and stop wasting your energy on excuses.
Brendan Rogers: It's a really great perspective. And as you're talking, I'm sitting here thinking, I've often used the term ‘victim mentality vs. self-reliance mentality’ and that's what I'm hearing and the ability itself, but it goes back to your earlier point that you make, you know, the mindset of the leaders is really so powerful in order to progress through this process. If the mindset's not right, then it's almost like you're pushing, you know, dare I say it, shit uphill and it's coming back and hitting you in the face. They really have to be committed and have the right mindset about this. And as you say, the self-awareness and self-accountability and have the courage to go on that journey.
Bernie Kelly: One of the mentors that I had many years ago, sort of when I was sort of getting my head into this space, sort of said to me like, you know, a lot of people sort of think about victims maybe at lower levels in the hierarchy. He said, I read the Financial Review and I can tell CEOs and Board Chairs that are at effect”. And his point was that actually, when you hear a leader of an organisation blaming the government, blaming the overseas competitors, blaming the, you know, your customer, blaming the tax system, you know, other things like that, that you know that they're not putting their energy into making the organisation better. And he said, “I make sure that I pull any investment out of companies”. As soon as, the moment I hear a CEO that talks like that, at effect that is no longer, that's early sign that they're not going to be a good investment long-term.
Brendan Rogers: I love that perspective. The leader is the biggest risk for an organisation. They can be a powerful leader and somebody that really guides but the risk side comes in if they're not, then you know, the rest of the organisation goes downhill. And that can be from an investor perspective so that the function of that leadership team and how functional they are, can really, is the foundation of a great organisation.
Bernie Kelly: And why this particular topic is so key, particularly, you know, as the world's evolving, is we're facing such complex problems that the solutions are not right in front of us. So, building this exercise around expose is actually holding the tension on those problems. And that actually is where the exciting breakthroughs happen. So, anytime you've been involved in real breakthrough work, is where the leadership team held the tension on the topic long enough. The human mind is amazing how if you actually leave a problem in front of it long enough, it will just keep coming back at it. And that particular thing of ‘at cause at effect’ allows you to hold the tension in the problem solving when it starts to get hard.
Brendan Rogers: It really comes back to the concept of leaders being able to have tough conversations, doesn't it? That you need to be able to talk through these things. And I love what you just said around if it's not bought out, the mind keeps coming back to it. It's like that thing that keeps chipping away, chipping away. And often, it comes out through some passive aggressive behaviour some time later, which is the worst thing. And I Lencioni uses the term artificial harmony, a lot. And I love that, that view, you know there's this undercurrent underneath and you've got to, in your terms, and these four disciplines expose that and create the environment to talk about that. Only when you do that can you move forward.
Bernie Kelly: Yep. And so, that expose practice really sort of comes out of that, the self-accountability. And it’s interesting how the four practices do integrate and you can sort of go around the cycle building better and better sort of change-fitness. But with the expose one, the self-accountability, rather than being held to account, I hold myself to account is a massively different piece between transactional turnaround type of activities and that transformation that we were speaking about before. ‘Cause, if you've got the leadership team to be self accountable and increasingly self-aware, they are learning and driving and that actually is the platform for so many other things in the transformation.
Brendan Rogers: As you can hear from my interview with Bernie, he reflects deeply on all his experiences. People like that often have so much to share and there is so much we can learn from them. Bernie is no different. When I recorded this interview with Bernie, I said to him, “Don't worry about how long we talk for. Given the subject matter and the amount of content you have to share, I may have to break this up into a two-part episode.” Well, that's exactly what happened.
So these were my three key takeaways from Part One of my chat with Bernie.
My first key takeaway. Change-fitness is just like physical fitness. It is a practice. It requires commitment and discipline. It's not about intellect and it doesn't just magically happen. Just like physical fitness, there is no magic pill for change-fitness. Teams must be deliberate about becoming change-fit.
My second key takeaway. Mindset and learning capability are the key drivers for change-fitness. I asked Bernie about the amount of time it takes for teams to move through what he calls the change-fit ladder from collapsing to shaping. He said that it isn't time-bound. If the team's mindset and learning capability is right, they can move through the change-fit ladder very quickly. There was a very powerful statement from Bernie that stood out for me around this. He said, “Getting belief in a different potential is the platform for the transformation.”
My third key takeaway. Change-fit leadership teams are critical to succeeding into the future. Bernie talked about the concept of at cause, where a leader or team takes ownership, versus at effect, where they blame and allow excuses. He mentioned how one of his mentors would make investment decisions around whether the leader is at cause or at effect and if they are at cause, they wouldn't be putting their energy into making the organisation better. So for him, it was an early sign that the organisation isn't a great investment longer term. Change-fit leadership teams don't make excuses. They take ownership.
In summary, my three key takeaways are: change-fitness is just like physical fitness; mindset and learning capability are the key drivers for change-fitness; change-fit leadership teams are critical to succeeding into the future.
Bernie's contact details will be given at the end of Part Two.
If you have any questions for Bernie or I, please contact me via email at firstname.lastname@example.org
Next week, I look forward to bringing you Part Two of my conversation with Bernie as we dive into the other three practices of change-fit leadership teams.
Thank you for listening. Stay safe. Until next time.
Outtro (music): Thank you for listening to The Culture of Things podcast with Brendan Rogers. Please visit brendanrogers.com.au to access the show notes. If you love The Culture of Things podcast, please subscribe, rate and give a review on Apple podcasts and remember a healthy culture is your competitive advantage.